Episode 8

On today’s episode, we’ll be interviewing Linda Cartier, R.F.P., and President of the Academy of Financial Divorce Specialists, and, Financial Decisions Incorporated, on her role as an educator in the community, how being an R.F.P. helped her to become a better financial planner and the strength of the IAFP organization.

 

Transcript

David Miller

So welcome to the Institute of Advanced Financial Planners Podcast. I have with me a special guest, Linda Cartier. Am I saying that name right, Linda? 

Linda Cartier

Yeah. Linda Cartier. That’s correct. 

David Miller

And Linda, you are the president of the Academy of Financial Divorce Specialists for the last 18 years, and also the president of Financial Decisions Incorporated for the last 25 years. 

Linda Cartier

Right. 

David Miller

To start off, maybe just tell me a little bit about your history. Let’s start from the very beginning. What is your motivation in becoming a Financial Planner?

Linda Cartier

Well, I worked in an office where I was administrator to other people that were working in investments and I got a good, really interesting and sort of positive rapport with the clients. And it just struck me that there needed to be more than just the investments. And so there was a gentleman who was doing a Financial Planning Seminar, that was one of our colleagues in another city. And he wanted us to do this and I was the only one that was interested. So he kind of took me under his wing and we did a session and I just thought, wow, this is exactly what people need, because it was kind of the soup to nuts. It was like, how do you protect yourself with insurance? What about retirement and taxes and estate planning. So I’m like, this just makes so much sense to me. And so as a result, I decided that I was really good to go a little more forward and do a little more learning and took my CFP and actually started running classes at a Community College, about learning more about your finances, and I got known then as being the person who sort of the educator in my community and went from there.

David Miller

Right. And so what did you start first? You started Financial Decisions, or you started being a teacher for a while, and then you branched out from being a teacher, and you started to take on individual clients?

Linda Cartier

Well, I mean, I got noticed being a teacher, but I was doing the teaching while I was building Financial Decisions. So it was kind of a two part thing. It just made sense to me that it was important to do more than just the investing. And I think the general public at that particular time, wasn’t even aware of what financial planning really meant. So this was a way to help put the word out there.

David Miller

Yeah. And the public is still having issue with that, because there’s so many different terms and terminologies. 

Linda Cartier

Yeah.

David Miller

And so you help people determine who to go for help, or you’re trying to educate them just on basics.

Linda Cartier

just educate them on basics. You know, help those people that were trying to get out of debt, help those people understand what is all this insurance stuff really mean? Help them understand that what you bring home is important, but what do you get to keep after taxes, even more important? And of course, then how do you protect your legacy for your family?

David Miller

Yeah, so tell me a little bit more about Financial Decisions and that company? What does it set up to do at this point?

Linda Cartier

Sure. We do like a complete financial planning opportunities. So people can come in and open up a specialty savings account or they can do a financial plan. I do quite a bit of actual plans, just fee for service work. They can also invest with us, be insured through us, we do tax returns, and then of course, I do the specialty divorce work as well. 

David Miller

Yeah. And is it just you? Or do you have a group that you’re managing and helping? 

Linda Cartier

Well, we’re a very small group. My daughter works in the business with me and so does my husband. And so we are kind of like a family centered. And then of course, have staff as well. But the main financial planning is done with myself and my daughter.

David Miller

And of course, you’re a member of the IAFP, so your primary education is Financial Planning, and that’s what your profession is set up to be. When did you join the IAFP?

Linda Cartier

I joined the IAFP in the early 90s I believe. he The person who mentored me was like, you need to go to the next level, you need to get your R.F.P. And so he was like, you know, my idol as far as doing things well in the financial planning world. And so I just went and did what he said and I got to meet all the amazing people at the IAFP that we’re like minded and that we’re really focused on financial planning and caring about doing a full body job for the clients. And went from there.

David Miller

Yeah. And so is that something that’s helped you along the process and becoming successful? Or would you accredit your current success to something else or another mentor or another path?

Linda Cartier

The person who was my original mentor certainly put the building blocks in place. But I would say that becoming an R.F.P. and meeting the people from the Institute are a big piece of how I became a better planner. The symposiums that are led there, you have top notch people that are not flogging product, they’re there to really broaden your horizons and push you to think about different things and learn more.

David Miller

Yeah, in the Symposium every single year, at the end of September, is just a fantastic resource, online for last two years, unfortunately but we’ll see you back hopefully in Ottawa next year?

Linda Cartier

Yeah, absolutely. 

And you’re also the President of the Academy of Financial Divorce Specialists. Maybe tell me a story on how that came to be?

Linda Cartier

Sure. Well, there was a point in my practice where I was having a year where there were more than what my average year had been of clients divorcing. And I came across this information piece that said diversifying your practice and recession proofing your practice, and I thought what does this really mean? Learning something more about divorce, I thought was really important, because I obviously didn’t have as much knowledge as I needed to service clients properly. And so myself and my husband went to Los Angeles and took the course from the woman that was kind of pioneered this niche, and subsequently came back and we were the only two Canadians that had the designation. That kind of went on for a while. And then, one day she contacted me back and said she wanted to develop something here in Canada. And so I assisted her with that. There’s a whole story about how she kind of did not stay with us. But that’s not our problem, it was just a problem she got herself into. And so I took it over with Akilah Davis at that time, that was also an R.F.P. from DC. And so then we we started that in 2003, when we started to run the academy ourselves. And after that Akilah has since left and so that’s why, right now I’m the only director. And we’ve kind of grown from there. And there is a huge need. What happens in the in the actual world, is that the lawyers have great information about how the law works, but they don’t really have a lot of experience or background about financial, and so much of what goes on with people separating his dividing assets, dealing with the taxation, dealing with the various income and credits and all that sort of stuff. So there’s a really big hole if you don’t have the financial person at the table.

David Miller

Yeah, and every province seems to be a little bit different. 

Linda Cartier

Yep. 

David Miller

So there are different rules. And every situation is in incredibly unique.

Linda Cartier

 Yep. 

David Miller

And so how do you know, with children without children, one spouse working one not working, all spouses working, inheritances, just so many complexities that can enter into a divorce situation. And really there is nobody that you can go to, or you can go to a lawyer at this point, if you just don’t know.

Linda Cartier

 Yeah.

David Miller

They’re just doing bookkeeping for you. So they charge you hourly fees for that. So is that the main reason for somebody seeing you?

Linda Cartier

Well, I mean, I don’t think it’s just the fact that the lawyers are just charging you bookkeeping fees. Their world is words, wordsmithing, and making sure that all the legal stuff is in the right place in the right order. So because it’s always been their world, there’s a little bit of feeling that maybe they didn’t need financial people. But as times gone along, I think that there’s an opening of awareness. That Oh, wait a sec, there’s a lot of things we haven’t thought of. Like you brought up a number of issues. Every situation is different. Every province does have their own rules. Property is dealt with from the province so anything that’s dividing the assets, that’s got to go under provincial rules. When it comes to income, that’s not the same. Clients don’t have a clue. And of course, during that particular time, the clients are also in such an emotional distress that it’s very close to being, like on the verge of insanity. They’ve done some research on this. And so they’re making some of the biggest decisions in their life without their really best wits about them. And so it’s really important for them to have that neutral party, which is what the financial person comes in, because if you can work with both clients. It’s not my lawyer, his lawyer, or vice versa, or mediator. So then it allows them to have that information and education about these are the choices you’re making, this is what it’s going to do. So what’s it going to look like if you choose this asset over that asset? What kind of tax implications are there? If you are getting support or paying support, what does that do to your tax bill? And a lot of times their concern is, can I retire? Or can I buy or purchase another house? Or can I open a business? All those kind of important questions, which can make a huge difference to them down the road. And the way the lawyers look at it is like, do this deal and get it done and everybody’s agreed, and then move on. They’re not looking at what happens to them in the future. So we bring that projection piece in to help them have a bit of a eye opener as to what could this look like.

Yeah. And in your opinion, if people understood the true financial impacts of divorce, would people go see marriage counselors and try to work it out more? 

Linda Cartier

You know, there’s a chance that would happen. I mean, it depends on the reason for the separation. But I would certainly say part of my experience is that there’s two main reasons that people do split up. One is infidelity. But a lot of times it’s money. A lot of times there’s two different money styles. They don’t communicate well together. And so sometimes it is, like I have had not often, but I have had a few situations where they chose to get back together again because they figured out, well wait a sec, we’re not communicating well with each other and that’s causing some problems with these two different financial styles and stuff like that. And I’m happy to say, in some cases, which I would really encourage the world to do, is look at doing a cohabitation or a marriage agreement. You save yourself a ton of money. You still have to have the lawyers involved to draft up the proper documents and that sort of thing. But you both love each other. You’re both in good spirits. If you’re going to be fair ever, that’s when you’re going to be fair and you’re not having this clouded emotional mind. You’re going to be a lot more rational and reasonable. So it allows you to say, Okay, you know what, the statistics are there, let’s just do this as a safety feature. You’d be way better off to spend a few thousand dollars to get all your ducks in a row here than to spend 5 or 20,000, on the big wedding. Which is one day.

David Miller

And what you said about being rational, as a married person myself, we’ve all have irrational moments. And we don’t even recognize them while we’re in them. But having a third party look at a situation from a financial perspective, I think makes quite a bit of sense. So tell me a little bit more about the Academy and how many people are currently registered as Divorce Specialists in Canada?

Linda Cartier

Sure. Well, the Academy’s main role is to train people that have an accredited financial background. So they have to be like a C.F.P., R.F.P., C.P.A., that kind of thing. so that there’s that as a base. And so this gives them that extra information and education about how to deal with people going through separation and divorce. We would have, give or take, we’re kind of a moving target right at this moment, but I would certainly say we’re kind of in the 300 people range. And that’s not nearly enough for what’s needed across the country. But anyways, we’re working tremendously hard at trying to bring awareness as to what this is about and the benefits of it. We then support the people who are graduates as members so we have like ongoing education sessions for them and that sort of thing and are there to help support them. We’ve developed a proprietary software that does help with projections, specifically for people going through separation or divorce. So it lets them see what the what the future could hold.

David Miller

Ya, and certainly this is a specific niche within the investment landscape. What are you finding as the president and advisors who gain this designation? Do they see an increase in that specific type of business right away? Or is it something that they only do or? 

Linda Cartier

Right. It depends on on what they’ve come to us for. There are some people that have decided, you know, and there’s lots of reasons why a person might not want to do investments anymore with the compliance regime. So in some cases, they want to hang up that shingle, and they want to do something different. So they’ve decided this as their main focus. Then you have other people that just want to learn more, so that they can be a better financial planner in these circumstances. It does mean that if it’s your own client, and depending on which way clients choose to separate, there’s like, if you use the collaborative process, for example, you can’t be their advisor before or after. But if they choose traditionally, or mediation, it could still be something that you might assist them with, although there is truly a conflict of interest there. So it’s a wide variety, but I would certainly say the majority of people, this is what they want to do with a large percentage of their time.

David Miller

Right. And since you have this platform now, on this podcast, did you want to set up your own podcast with the academy? Because obviously, the IAFP is looking out for ourselves as well. We’re looking for new members and the primary vocation being in financial planning, and the benefits of doing that. What would your advice be to new planners coming up? In they’re thinking around niching, or getting into something like this?

Linda Cartier

Sure, I would certainly say, it’s one of the most interesting aspects of financial planning, because it incorporates pretty much everything. But it’s never boring. I mean, not that regular financial planning would be boring, but I mean, a retirement plan, even though the circumstances may be different, it’s not really ever quite as unique as dealing with people going through separation or divorce. So from an interest perspective, it’s really useful. It’s such a valuable thing that you bring, because if the clients make decisions based on misinformation, or on lack of information, it’s such a huge devastation to them down the road. I mean, sometimes people will go bankrupt because of divorce. And of course, you’re also impacting their children, and everything about their lives. So it’s very rewarding to help people through a tough time. And sometimes it’s just them having somebody who translates what it all means, even that can make a big difference for them. So I would certainly say, if you really like working with people more than you like working with investments, for example, I would say this is a really good choice. And one of the things, like I said, we’re really trying to grow the fact that let’s try to get people set up before they would divorce. So I think there’s lots of opportunity here. That one thing I would say though, if you’re if you don’t enjoy a challenge, or you don’t enjoy working with people through all different emotional pieces, then that is something that means this might not be for you. Because you are going to have somebody break down sometimes, you are going to have somebody lose their temper sometimes. And you need to be able to navigate that comfortably. And you also need to be able to really check yourself at the door, that you are a true neutral. So not only you can’t take sides, you can’t even look like you’re taking sides, no matter what your personal thought is. Because of course, we hear what the clients want us to hear because they’ve chosen what they’re going to divulge to us. We don’t really know the full facts, we don’t really understand all of what is the cause of the situation, or what their dynamics are, who’s pushing whose buttons and all that kind of stuff.

David Miller

Right. And what’s the difference between what that is versus a moderator and this is coming from someone who’s not in the space at all.

Linda Cartier

Sure, you mean somebody who would do mediation?

David Miller

 Correct. 

Linda Cartier

Okay, so the difference would be their responsibility is supposed to be neutral, although depending on whether you have an accredited mediator or not, that may not be the case, and it’s important for clients to vet that out. Or if you’re an advisor and your referring people, make sure that if you’re referring them to a mediator, they are an accredited mediator because they also aren’t regulated so can hang up a shingle and just say they are. So that’s really important. But they’re their responsibility is to have a conversation and foster an ongoing conversation that brings these people to be able to build an agreement. And that’s it. That agreement is really important. And they will often do parenting plans and that sort of thing. But their expertise is not financial again. And so they can refer out the financial piece, or they can muddle through the financial piece. I’ve certainly seen some mediated agreements, that because there was a lack of knowledge about the financial, the clients had agreed to something that they didn’t understand what the impact of that financial piece was going to be, and neither did the mediator. And so there’s a place for everybody. It’s just that, from my experience, the financial piece is mandatory there to do a decent job for people.

David Miller

Yeah, absolutely. How can you make any decisions in your life without first contemplating the financial impacts, not just now, but projecting over the course of your life? And that makes so much sense to me, but because I’m biased as a financial planner, I understand this and understand the benefits of doing that. And that’s something we have to promote for everybody. So thank you very much for setting that up. What is the best way for people to reach out? The public I’m talking about, or even financial planners who want to learn more?

Linda Cartier

For sure. There are all kinds of resources. I would certainly say if you have any questions in this area, or if you think you might want to even entertain it go to our website www. afds.ca. It’s possible for clients to go there, there’s resources for them to some degree, to at least understand what they’re missing. if they’re not using this. They can find a person in their area, although now that the world has changed, they could use a person anywhere. And the same if there is any financial planners that are thinking, Oh, you know, I’d like to check this out further. Maybe I’d like to either put this in my cap as another feather, or maybe I’d like to even do this as a piece of my practice going forward on a very strong basis, then just contact us and we’re happy to direct you anywhere.

David Miller

Yeah, and what about you directly if somebody is looking for financial help? Are you still taking on clients at this point?

Linda Cartier

On a referral only basis just because of how busy things are. So on a referral only basis and there’s a little bit of a waiting list.

David Miller

Yeah. So if somebody doesn’t know somebody who knows you, they can’t get in unless they’re listening to this podcast or going to research you in another way. But again, thank you very much for providing the information. Anything else you’d like to bring up? Again, this being a potential soapbox for you?

Linda Cartier

Right? Well I personally think that every financial planning firm should be looking at having somebody who has the Chartered Financial or Specialist Designation. There should be at least somebody there. You can refer your clients to that person knowing that they’re going to be in a better place at the end of the day, because they’ve had better information. So it’s one of the things that I think is missed is that there’s this feeling because people have, you know, you’re well educated once you become a financial planner, especially if you’ve done it for a few years, and that sort of thing. But I can certainly say, and some of the most respected people that I know that are fees have taken our course and come out and said, Well, I didn’t realize what I didn’t know. And unfortunately, sometimes we actually do walk into a liability position because as soon as you give advice, which is what we do, as a financial planner all the time, you’ve actually crossed the line, because as soon as you give a client who’s going through separation or divorce, actual advice, that’s considered legal territory. And most people don’t even think of it because this is what we do. And of course, the clients, that’s what they want, tell me what to do. They just want you to make life easy for them. But that’s not the best choice. So I would certainly say go find out what you don’t know.

David Miller

Yeah. We’re lucky as R.F.P.’s that it’s right in our ethics. If you don’t know, you just cannot say whatever comes to your mind. You say, I don’t know. And then you go back to our forum and say, Well, this is the situation. Are there any divorce specialists available? This is the question my client has. And guess what, Linda will probably answer and that’s pretty incredible.

Linda Cartier

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it’s one of the benefits of having such a strong organization. To be able to refer within because we have all sorts of different specialists and either using the form or actually, you know, like I’ve had clients that I’ve referred to somebody else because they had expertise in a particular area that I did not. And so you want to do the best for your clients.

David Miller

Absolutely. And that’s the key message to all of this is we’re trying to do the best for our clients situation. And every client’s going to fit in a certain different way. Right? Well, again, thank you very much, Linda. That’s how much time we want to spend. But again, we could dive into this for so much longer, and I really appreciate your time today.

Linda Cartier

Okay, great. Well, thanks for having me. 

David Miller

All right. Thanks.